Who's working on what type of project? Any collaboration possible??

*Gilligan's Island theme ON*
...A 2-hour tour, A 2-hour tour.....
*theme OFF*

Okay besides just dating myself and being silly I find the idea of collaboration interesting Lee. I would definitely like to work with you if you like. I had not thought of a 2 hour long mission set as a whole but I have thought that the startup breifing would be cool. I have also been working on a zero briefing mission that assumes no knowledge on the part of the crew via memory loss (dang faulty hyper-sleep modules).

Lets talk.

Lee & Brandr, I'd love to get involved and offer anything I can. I was considering putting audio or audio/visual recordings that I can trigger whn needed for incomming mssgs, Primarily a briefing or a welcome mssg for 1st timers & a debriefing and thanks mssg to the captain and crew for their bravery...& so on.

I think I'm about an hour away from you Lee so I'd love to visit when your ready.

Let me get the communities input on my concept before going much further... I want to create an LBE simulator that would be worthy for a Disney-type installation if everything both on the software side as well as the hardware side both progress to their natural ends. Due to the heavy-hardware/ambiance/control side of things, a portable setup isn't really feasible, unless its mounted in a semi-trailer and carried around in an almost complete ready-to-play state.

I'm envisioning more of a permanent setup within FEC's (Family Entertainment Centers) and Laser Tag Locations. I've currently got an Internet Cafe willing to consider hosting a sim if the prototype proves out to be adequate. If several locations get installed then some of the bridge-vs-bridge and even Admiral-based scenarios become possible...

I intend this to be more oriented towards an older or more sophisticated audience who can appreciate the team-based, common-goal, immersive-mission type of gaming.

If immersion and a higher-level of sophistication (for commercial/financial reasons) is what I'm desiring, then the casual play of a bunch of friends on the weekend is almost the opposite of what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a walk-in SIM experience full of mostly 1st time players. I don't want them to look through a list of missions or ship types and try out a bunch of various options. I want them to be fully-immersed when they enter the "ship" with very little out-of-sim briefing.

A very long time ago, I attended a space ship bridge simulator and paid $25 for a 2.5'ish-hour tour. Even if it was mostly green-screens and 4 CGA monitors, it was still quite cool and I didn't feel cheated for my $25 bux worth.. This amount equates to a target rate of $10/hour/person or $60/hour for sim time. Whether or not this rate is feasible in this era of computers, internet and LAN parties, I don't know. If the entire package is cool enough, I think its a reasonable rate.

All this being said, I'm looking for the players to have a seamless single immersive experience from when they step aboard, until their tour is finished. I'm looking at this to have the players get involved in story line that has some training or shakedown cruise at the beginning, some team-building and climax-building elements in the middle, ending with some type of climatic finish. EVERY PLAYER should walk away from their 2.5 hour mission feeling AWESOME.

Since this is my goal, a single comprehensive mission filled with as much story line, side-plots and the like is what I'm looking for. An alternate situation is to have the GM select from a branching-tree of smaller missions that can stitch-together the story line. The GM could assess the current condition of the ship and select easier or harder plot segments (modules) depending on the needs of the particular crew.

This is my overall goal at the moment.. Thoughts, suggestions, comments??? Could anyone else benefit from this type of player/module setup?

Ive actually had a long talk with my brother who worked at the Disney. I told him if Disney was able to make a "Star Trek" space ship sim with about 4 Simulators at Walt Disney World and Disneyland and the guests were able to play against players from both parks also being able to hail the other ships. This would be awesome!

I would agree that in an environment where prospective players are being thrown together to create a bridge and where the players don't know each other, that this isn't the right model for the project, in its current configuration. I'm aiming more towards a destination that a group of friends can pre-reserve an allotment (time slot) and the FEC/LaserTag/Internet cafe is the best place to meet and play.

I want to preserve the sophistication that appeals to a higher-grade audience. To those who appreciate the team and communication aspects of the game. If marketing/promotions is done at the local card or comic book stores, plus any local con's and tradeshows, this will hopefully attract the type of audience that will appreciate the higher level of play. If the LBE's are in the FEC/LaserTag/Internet cafe's, then there will be additional exposure to this more immersive level of play.

I learned long ago that you can please everyone, all of the time. There are plenty of knee-jerk, FPS, twitch-style games out there in console, PC, Video game and even handheld console versions. What's missing are games, sims and more sophisticated forms of entertainment (like Artemis) for us more sophisticated gamers.. ;-P

Short version for Lee => I am willing to collaborate with you on the project you outlined.

To answer Lees question up above in detail I am sort of thinking along the same lines for building my bridge setup. I am thinking some thing more portable for now with the intent of scaling up later.

While I think some of Hissatsu's points are good and should be kept in mind, I tend to disagree on a more general level. He is right about it if could be done it would have been done, and it was several times...if you just look through these forums you will find many references to places that have built such things. One of the things that I believe those other systems lacked that Artemis is the cross pollenation of the fan-base. Specifically, there are a bunch of us moving in the same direction-ish.

For myself I see this as something that I can build to share with my friends. If it turns out to make a little money, bonus! As for mass marketing you just have to pick the right target. Call the immersive LBE a "team building exercise" and market it to big companies. Call it a "science education tool" and the local middle school will come.

I guess my approach is based in a phrase that my high school math teacher used to say,

Clay Fulcher
If you am for the moon and hit the top of a tree, then you did okay.

By the way what do you do about rent?

Here in Russia, all such projects like "lets open a lasertag where we (pro gamers) could play and also regular customers too" or "lets open a Reach Mahjong club" (something i was involved with) end up in the same business plan trash bin - either you cannot even reach 0 profit level, meaning you'll have to pay for this each month from your pocket, or you will probably sometimes become profitable, but its much more profitable to open a food outlet on the same place, and it will give you much more profit.

Not to mention you have to invest money in front - for equipment, cosmetic repairs of the room,...

Well you either have to fund it out of your own pocket or find a financial backer. Right now I am focusing on computers, monitors, etc. and playing in my garage or the downstairs family room when the wife lets me. ;-)

Mostly I try to look down the road and envision the possibilities. When Thom said he'd support an interface to our hardware well, I thought it best to ask for the "moon" (see my previous message in this thread) figuring I'll be happy with whatever he gives us.

BTW, on a side note, let me just say, once again, THOM IS AWESOME!!!! :-)

My prototype is located within a warehouse that I'm already paying rent on so there isn't any monthly rent I need to pay for the Artemis space. IF the prototype comes out the way I hope it will, then moving it, or a clone of it, to an existing location like a Laser tag place/FEC/Arcade/Internet Cafe and creating some type of profit-sharing arrangement would be the next step. This arrangement wouldn't have any type of monthly rent (or risk) that a stand-alone location would have.

Brandr; Thanks for the help... :-) The biggest thing that needs to be worked on is, in my humble opinion, an extra-large mission script complete with all the new GM functionality that is now available. My intent is to have the GM "storyteller" actively attempt to deliver just what the particular crew needs at the time they need it. In other words, if a crew starts out a mission and has the task of 1) navigate to X, 2) blow up Y enemies then 3) dock with Z spacedock and they have a difficult time, then they should get some 'remedial' training and get a chance to "practice" a bit more before moving on to the next link in the quasi-linear storyline. This will likely be done by adding some type of comms message with their next target/mission then dropping in some bad guys for them to deal with. If the crew goes through the first mission with ease, then they can jump straight to the next node in the module.

Charlie; Any time you want to drop by would be great.. I have a small group that meets at the sim every Monday at 6pm to try to push this project further along. I'm VERY interested in your audio/video thoughts as I have had many of the same thoughts. The GM "CNC - control area" should have a BUNCH more meta-gaming controls that should be able to enhance the players experience beyond the Artemis built in GM console. With all the talk on hardware interfaces, hotkeys, API's and other interface connections, hopefully much of this will be able to be controlled from or triggered from within the game itself. We should discuss this MUCH further.. :-)

Hissatsu; I really don't want this to turn into a shooter on rails... If it looks like I'm heading that way, in any fashion, please give me a smack up-side the head. hehe...

It sounds like some type of hardware control interface is inevitable. I'm still working on the physical aspects of the bridge. I've got it condensed into a 9' x 8' space which for 6 people is VERY small, however, its reasonable as a spaceship bridge and will hopefully allow me to be able to grow to 4+ bridges over time all within my current prototype space.

I'm on the lookout for this type of relay rack [http://lanvantage.com/media/ccp0/prodsm/120006BK.jpg] and have been finding a few on some auction sites for as low as $25. If anyone knows of these for this price, let me know.

2 LeeKeiserII
When i metioned shooter-on-rails i meant that Trans-Force company, which made a kind-of space bridge simulation game and installed one such spaceship bridge room in the city where i live, later had to change it from a complex bridge simulation to a shooter-on-rails to make it more attractive to its clients, and now even no longer advertise that old systems, instead only offering those "shooter on rails" simulators.

About the rent, well, it seems that you have better... how do i say... "conditions" compared to what we have here. I can hardly imagine a lasertag business in Russia, Saint-Petersburg or Moscow, having so much spare space they can share it. I mean, the rent fees are like the biggest montly cost so they tend to rent just the room they need. Rent in a good location (close to city centre or good availability of public transport) is generally high and competition for it is very big. It seems like you have more easy time... lucky you :)

About the mission, well that kind of experience, where the game master would work as a sort of "narrator" or "admiral" or "training supervisor", with team being cadets who are going to face their final practice missions and then given a real task, could be awesome if you'd make it work. This is really something Artemis lacks now, we felt it when we met for the second time, and had two new players - playing on low difficulty was boring for people who are already skilled, and playing on high difficulty meant newbies had to jump in and be in a stress since they were overwhelmed with orders and information queries. Of course we still managed and Artemis is really easy to get into, but a training mission would be great! And it would probably work well with mass-entertaintment as well, where people would pay for some minutes or hours of playtime, and GM could as them if they played already and want to start at certain stage, and could advance them in plot when they'd complete the previous part, and when nearing the end of the paid time give them a debriefing of sorts and tell them they can come another time and continue playing from the stage they reached.

You want to have an analogy to LaserTags/FECs/LAN centres? Hmm maybe I can help there.

Having managed all three of those (both individual centres and at group level) I might suggest the following:

- the reason that lasertag centres exist is because of the birthday party trade. Nothing is more important, this is your 'bread and butter'. Members activities, tournaments, and so forth are simply a distraction. Whilst it is true that these people spend a higher amount per head, there are quite simply nowhere near enough of them, and they are not nearly loyal enough to be able to base a business upon.

- you need to consider your target audience. In an FEC there'll be lots of footfall quite possibly, but how many people are there to play an arcade game (and the associated cost of that) whilst they wait for their main activity to become available (bowling, for example)? How many are there simply because they have gone to spend serious money on arcade games? I can't comment on the USA, but over here in the UK, that's really very few and far between. I used to deliberately run my bowling lanes about 15 minutes behind to increase the arcade income ;-)

- you have to consider if your presence in a business would be complimentary to that business, or competing with that business. In a LAN cafe, I certainly think that the latter would be the case, in which case you're less likely to be so popular with an owner.

- what happens if someone shows up to play, and there's no-one else there to play with? It's like going to a shop to find it's closed - next time, you go elsewhere,as you don't want to have had a wasted journey.

Just a few quick thoughts I had - hope they were useful!

P.S. Hissatsu, please don't tell me you played full cover *shudder*.. I'm from LQX you see :)

Ed; All worthy points. Unless Artemis can entertain an entire birthday party at once (multiple bridges maybe?), then we would have to be some benefit to an LBE like a healthy revenue-share or fixed rent or something similar. I agree..

Hissatsu; Overall, I want to stay away from any type of arcade-game experience and focus more on the Narrator led simulation as you mentioned. Because this LBE is intended as a destination type of business, it would require its own advertising and should draw people to whatever the location is. It would be easier on the advertising budget if it was in some type of high-traffic location, but high-traffic wouldn't be required.

Brandr; What kinds of visions or dreams did you have for Artemis? With what I've already outlined as some of my thoughts and goals, does anything you've been thinking about correlate with what I've been thinking?

Offtop:
Ed, i played LQX somewhere in England or Scotland, and enjoyed how the lasertag itself was made (especially how light the blaster was, its very safe to play with it). On that arena any cover was prohibited, so naturally i didnt get to see how you cover in that.
I played LaserForce (same style vests, smaller guns with only side sensors) and there you could have a full frontal cover by raising your left hand's elbow to cover the shoulder.
I like Quasar because there cover is essential and powerful but not overpowered, but that's here in Russia. Our game is different from that which you guys play - we have more shots per second and no reflex, so game is more about being able to outrun your opponent and get cover from an ally and maneuvering/flanking and pinning enemies down, rather than individual shot trading and cover. Our arena was also very different from yours - bigger, with more open spaces, more like a mix of a lasertag and a paintball arena i'd say. Too bad only arena in my city is closed now :(
We (me and Russians from other cities) played versus english, irish and american players on a world championship in 2011 in Bray, and yes their game is all about cover, and they have to impose rules to prohibit covers that make you outright invincible.

Well, Lee, the benefit that Artemis brings to the table that Laser Tag and its ilk doesn't is that a you don't need an opposing team to play it. If you've got a group of people who want to play as a team, you don't need to wait for another team to show up. Even if they want to play with/against other humans, it's conceivable that could be done over the net.

Also, take a lot of time to examine what you think your target audience will be; there will be overlap between the Laser Tag birthday crowd and Artemis, but it could cater to a more sophisticated clientele, too. These guys don't let in anyone under 11, and they seem to do alright. Maybe take a few pages from their flightbook?

I am working on refining my drawings for building a complete (inside and out) command module section which acts both as the bridge for the starship and a separable six-person vessel capable of independent operations including landing. My design is very heavily based on the Corvette class ships from the Particle Systems game Independence War (which I have always loved).

The command module will be right around 24 feet long, 24 feet wide and 11 feet tall. I am designing it in three separable sections with the 10 foot wide center section being the actual usable interior portion and two outboard sections that attach and form the outer "wingtip" sort of shape the module has.

The outer sections will have bays for computers and storage which are accessible by opening panels or drawers from the center section. The center section will sit on a steel undercarriage with attached landing gear so when the outboard sections are removed it can be loaded onto a large truck for transport. This will also allow me to tow the whole command module around on the ground to wherever I want to position it. For all intents and purposes it's going to be a complete spacecraft mockup and simulator.

I am not doing this as a money making venture but for my own (and my friends') enjoyment. I will also be able to use the ship for flying flight sims or doing full lan parties for things other than Artemis using the installed computers.

I will try and post my construction drawings in a new thread here sometime very soon =).

Oh, did I mention I used to work on flight simulator systems for Japan Airlines? =P